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Where do you stand in the health care debate?

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Post by Slacker Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:06 am

The current shitstorm in the US over health care has some how made it's way across the channel thanks to the American right attacking the NHS and a British MEP Daniel Hannan (He's a dick) continually going on Fox to attack it too.

A twitter campaign then started based on the hashtag 'welovethNHS'.

The government today came out pretty aggressively against Hannan.

It's interesting to note the difference in opinion. The NHS is quite literally one of our countries proudest inventions and there's never any talk of ever replacing it, because a system based on need and not ability to pay just makes so much sense. Whereas in the US, I gather it's rather controversial.

Just wondering what everyone's thoughts are on the subject Smile.
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Post by CraigKingOfIreland Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:18 am

Universal healthcare should be a basic human right, simple as Smile
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Post by dljrfn2000 Sat Aug 15, 2009 1:32 am

Counter to your simple as,

why should I have to pay for someone who is out of work or not in a job's healthcare? Is that fair to me? Is that fair to my children (future), or grandchildren (future) who will be stuck with the multi billion dollar bill? Why should I who work hard and make a living have to pay for those who did not take advantage of life or even worse illegal immigrants who were too lazy to get there papers and come to this country legitimately?

The way I see it, it's not fair to the millions of americans who have healthcare to have to pick up the slack on the millions who don't. It's not fair for them to have to pay for the rest of the country. If you work hard for your money just pay the government enough money to keep some one from coming in and blowing everything up (a military) other wise you should spend the money on what you want to, or need to spend it on.
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Post by Aranho Sat Aug 15, 2009 2:23 am

I'm not sure how the healthcare system works in the US. But having taught on the British NHS in schools in Singapore, the NHS is somewhat a success and a failure in my point of view.

Yes, the NHS does help millions of British people every year with free healthcare system through high taxation rates in other areas. But having learnt that, being a free healthcare system, some British people will take advantage of it and rather slack to get pampered by the British Government.

In Singapore, the healthcare system is different. The Singapore Government believes that we people must pay for the healthcare bills and fees by ourselves and not get pampered by the government. Depending on your income in Singapore, citizens will have to pay from as low as 40% to as high as 100% of the hospital bills and fees. The government will then step in to help pay the rest of the hospital bills and fees through medical schemes such as MediSave and MediShield.

Being living in a society where we have to provide money for ourselves, I believe that the NHS is too pampered for the British people. It is completely unfair to those who works hard and pay for themselves when there are others who just sit down and do nothing, expecting the government to help them.

No wonder the taxation rate in the UK is extremely high (as high as 20% I believe) while the taxation rate in Singapore is low (7%).
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Post by CraigKingOfIreland Sat Aug 15, 2009 3:07 am

dljrnfn: Do you honestly believe that people earn money based on how hard they work? I think you may be a bit of an idealist and don't realise how society actually functions. We have always lived in a world thats based on exploiting many people to keep others rich. That puts many people in financial positions that they have little or no control over. Should we not at least protect the health of those who aren't in a position to do so themselves. I'm sure there will always be a small proportion of people who will try and exploit the system, but that doesn't mean everybody who can't afford insurance should suffer. Ireland has a terrible health system (thats what happens when an incompetent government builds a flawed system and appoints a doctor as head administrator) but I would definitely not trust the insurance man with my life. They're just as dodgy as the bankers who have ruined our economy for years.

And aranho, I don't know much about the NHS, but watching of British TV and news I've never got the impression that the Brits are pampered. In ireland its definitely not the case with our universal health care system.
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Post by Aranho Sat Aug 15, 2009 3:49 am

Craig's comment to dljrfn: Ouch. It sounds like I'm lucky to live in a country with a good and working government.

Craig's comment to me: Well, I'm not sure either but it seems to gave me the impression that some, not all, of the British are pampered.
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Post by CraigKingOfIreland Sat Aug 15, 2009 4:09 am

Aranho wrote: Ouch. It sounds like I'm lucky to live in a country with a good and working government.

You can say that again No
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Post by Aranho Sat Aug 15, 2009 4:26 am

Nah. I'll rather not say it again. Once is enough.
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Post by CraigKingOfIreland Sat Aug 15, 2009 4:42 am

...eh...ok...
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Post by Jcool663 Sat Aug 15, 2009 5:32 am

Personally i believe it is needed. I live in the U.S. And i'm lucky enough to be covered under insurance thanks to my fathers company. But universal healthcare is a major concern for me. I had a friend who was in a car accident and had a $87,000 medical bill from 3 crack ribs. a broken Femur and a month stay in the hospital. He is now in debt up to his eyeballs. i could never image that happening to me. he will be paying off that bill for years to come.

Personally i would love to see a Japanese health care system adapted to the U.S. Plus i live in Massachusetts and we already have a law that requires all people in the state to have insurance. and lately that has been working extremely well. Remember, The basics seperate us from the those in the third world that have almost nothing...
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Post by dljrfn2000 Sat Aug 15, 2009 2:00 pm

Jcool663 wrote:Personally i believe it is needed. I live in the U.S. And i'm lucky enough to be covered under insurance thanks to my fathers company. But universal healthcare is a major concern for me. I had a friend who was in a car accident and had a $87,000 medical bill from 3 crack ribs. a broken Femur and a month stay in the hospital. He is now in debt up to his eyeballs. i could never image that happening to me. he will be paying off that bill for years to come.

I'm gonna respond to this because Craig lives in Ierland and they have never enjoyed the real power to control your own money they've been a socialist state since there inception.

While I sympathize with your friends situation there are better ways to allow for universal healthcare than the way the bill currently in the US Senate calls for.

I'm not sure if any one here is familiar with the Veterans Affairs (or VA)... but in the US it's a health care system that is set up for retired veterans that is run by the government. Any one who knows what dealing with the VA is like it's a disaster. I would rather not have health insurance. There is so much red tape and so much bureaucracy within the system that it often takes so long for things to get done the patient has to suffer more than under the private system or dies because of the time loss. Now try to multiply that to cover everyone. It's not a pretty thought. Think about the trouble you might face going to the DMV.... now do that while feeling lousy or hurt while you need immediate medical care.... not gonna be to pleasant.

We also have to remember where I live, Hartford Connecticut is the Insurance capital of the world, we have several major insurance companies based here, Travelers, the Hartford, Aetna, and Anthem are all based in Hartford. Gieco, AIN, and MetLife are all based in New York City and provide jobs for thousands in the South Western Corner of the state. Connecticut economy would be reduced to just Electric Boat, and Sikorsky and with likely defense cuts with the democrats in power the economy would be shattered. So needless to say National Healthcare would be BAD for Connecticut's economy so right there alone I see a big issue.

So what's the solution? I've given all the reasons that this health care reform would be bad but how do we fix it? By firstly not giving to the federal government. The red tape and bureaucratic system would take an already broken system and destroy it. So what do we do? My suggestion would be to pass laws that give small businesses a better health care option.

Right now it's actually cheaper for a Big Corporation like say for instance Starbucks to get health care per person than it is for Mom and Pop shop. Why? Because they have more bucks they can higher better lawyers and they have more political backing than your local store. How would these laws change things?

Lets say mom and pop shop falls under a 50-60 employ blanket with say 55 members. With the government sanctions they must fall under a lesser or equal per person coverage as a company with 70-100 employ's or 100-150. Catch my drift?

Our founding fathers (the US's) were some of the most brilliant men in history. They feared large government for a reason, if we give the US government control over health care it gives them one more power over our lives. As I mentioned before a government should be in charge of only a handful of things- Regulating State to State Commerce(mostly the dispersal of currency), making sure that a foreign power does not come in and cause harm to its citizens, regulate roads highways and the vehicles on them, regulate business so that they don't become too big to fail (like we saw recently with the bail outs) and provide protection from crime (police).

Other than that it is up to either volunteers and non profit organizations, or private business. This is not idealism this is how the men who built the constitution envisioned the US being and thanks to presidents from Jackson to FDR to President Obama.... the government has grown and grown and grown. Our national debt has grown and grown and grown, and our taxes have grown and grown and grown until now we are getting closer to the point where our taxes will equal our income, we will have no money and we will have to go through the government for everything. When that day comes lets hope the people of the US realize we've screwed up and it's time to start taking away the power of the government. But until then god help us.
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Post by CraigKingOfIreland Sun Aug 16, 2009 1:24 am

dljrfn2000 wrote:
Craig lives in Ierland and they have never enjoyed the real power to control your own money they've been a socialist state since there inception.

Laughing FFS man, I could barely read past this sentence! I don't mean to be mean but that really displays a bit of ignorance. Ireland is the FOURTH most economically free country on earth, while the United States comes in at number SIX. I don't mean to offend you but I just can't take any argument you make at all serious now.

You also may want to have a look here before you call Ireland a socialist state Laughing

Since the inception of this state every government formed has been lead by either one of two parties; Fianna Fáil or Fine Gael. Both of these are slightly right-wing. Currently in government is Fianna Fáil, another right wing party called the PD's and the Green Party. Doesn't scream socialism IMO. The closest we've come to socialism is having the Labour Party in government. They are the third largest party in the country. The only other part in parliament that call themselves socialist are Sinn Féin (who I consider fascists).

Sorry for going off topic, but I really had to address that post Smile
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Post by Monegasque Sun Aug 16, 2009 3:14 am

hahahaa don't worry craig, i'd would of done the same thing Wink.
anyway, why is this such a big deal, just because Daniel Hannan went on FOX and attacked, which he is a huge dick for.

I've always loved the NHS, honestly, it really helps, it really does save people's lives.
okay, the british have to pay more taxes, but do we really care?
Everyone who lives in the UK will use the NHS more than 100 times in their life.

and nobody miss uses the system, and plus the brits don't get pampered.
and the NHS in my view was a 60 year sucess. Smile
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Post by CraigKingOfIreland Sun Aug 16, 2009 3:41 am

Wink

One other thing to think about (not necessarily related), according to the UN, the United States has the 38th highest life expectancy in the world. Their good friends, the socialist Cubans, are 37th Wink
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Post by Aranho Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:33 am

LOL. Razz

The US has been beaten by the Cubans.
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Post by dljrfn2000 Sun Aug 16, 2009 1:05 pm

CraigKingOfIreland wrote:Wink

One other thing to think about (not necessarily related), according to the UN, the United States has the 38th highest life expectancy in the world. Their good friends, the socialist Cubans, are 37th Wink
]

..... one mistake last I checked the Cubans were communist not socialists....



But here is the issue.... I make my money, I should have the right to spend it as I see fit! Not hand it over to my government and have them tell me where my money will be spent. Does that make any sense to you?
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Post by CraigKingOfIreland Sun Aug 16, 2009 1:36 pm

dljrfn2000 wrote:..... one mistake last I checked the Cubans were communist not socialists....

"Following enactment of the Socialist Constitution of 1976, the Republic of Cuba was defined as a socialist republic. This constitution was replaced by the Socialist Constitution of 1992, the present constitution..."

Communism is an extreme form of socialism, they aren't two completely seperate things.


dljrfn2000 wrote:But here is the issue.... I make my money, I should have the right to spend it as I see fit! Not hand it over to my government and have them tell me where my money will be spent. Does that make any sense to you?

Yes it does. A whole lot actually, which is why they already take your money and spend it on things for everybody.
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Post by Joe 90 Sun Aug 16, 2009 1:42 pm

So to put the shoe on the other foot, say you're in a car accident tomorrow and get pretty badly injured. Jcool mentioned earlier that a few broken bones and a short hospital stay set his friend back $87,000 - do you have that sort of money lying around, or would you tell the doctors thanks but no thanks, I can't afford it? I'd have thought that free/cheap/subsidised access to at least basic healthcare should be available to all.
I make my money too, but I like the fact that if I'm in an accident, or get diagnosed with cancer, or whatever, I'm not going to be bankrupt within 6 months. Add on top of that some of my taxes go into schools (seen the cost of private schools lately?), infrastructure (I work in roading and know just how heinously expensive the roading network is), and welfare (which I'm not as happy about forking out for) and everything else that keeps the country working. I consider myself on the right side of centre but user pays for essential services just doesn't fly.
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Post by Jcool663 Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:40 pm

Joe 90 wrote:. I consider myself on the right side of centre but user pays for essential services just doesn't fly.

Exaxtly. I live in massachusetts (Taxachusetts really) and we have some pretty decent stuff. The government here has used our tax money for basic things as health care, infrastructure, and welfare. I don;t see the results immediately but i see the results in the long run (I.E. a commuter rail to New Bedford in 6 years that connects to Boston) things like that pay off over time and not immediately. its going to do WONDERS for the sounth coast of Massachusetts and us who are in the region. So look at it like this... If you throw money at a universal healthcare system you see a return later on rather then as soon as you pay that money off... Things like medications and medical visits and checkups cost a pretty penny when your not covered under an insurance plan. When you think about it basics help a country become a prosperous one because all of its citizens are up to par and have an equal level playing field. 70% of people on welfare are on it because they are caught in a cycle that is relentless and 9 out of 10 times it due to medical reasons... if you helped people on welfare get off that wheel of expenses you help them pay for an education and hopefully to start on a better chart to the future (Although agreed U.S. Welfare needs to be revised i give you that).

The Healthcare plan will pay off in the long run.... if you stop using the ADD as an excuse and need to have the results ASAP you will see that investments in people and education pay off in years and not months. and really thats the way to successfully invest money. especially if your going to invest 1 trillion in your own people for future jobs, education, and health this may be just the way to do it.

And that's why i support it. (BTW, I'm a Green Libertarian... so me even saying this goes against my whole Libertarian philosophy but it makes sense according to be being a Green.)
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Post by dljrfn2000 Sun Aug 16, 2009 3:06 pm

As for private schools I think if you take into account what your tax dollars account for education and then figure in the fact that you have to pay that pretty much life time on top of any say college tuition it comes out to be less than 13 years of a private school then college tuition by it self. But that's a different argument in its own I've just had my own very bad experiences with the public school system.

Guys do understand something, I'm legally in the United States considered a person with disabilities so I more than understand the high medical bills I'm far from healthy. But my issue is not that I have health care screw what everyone else has or does not have. Do I think that the health care system in the United states is working? NO, far from it I realize that the health care system in the US is a disaster waiting to happen and it's only because of my disability status and my no bull attitude that I am able to hold my own with the Insurance companies.

But is giving the power and more money to Washington DC the answer. God no....

I have so much issue with the government's bureaucracy now a day and the fact is the US government is full of corruption. All you need to say (once again remember that I live in Connecticut) is the words Chris Dodd in this state and you get people who are in near angry mob form.

Quick background on that.
Chris Dodd is a senator from Connecticut who has extensive experience in the senate I believe he's been a senator for about 40 years now. He is the chair of the senate economic committee which is the watch dog group over the economy here in the US. The warning signs for the economic collapse were on Senator Dodd's desk. But he was receiving special deals from mortgage companies so he chose to protect them, and his own interests, over the countries leading us to one of the worst economic down turns since the depression. When this issue was brought up to the Congressional ethics committee (oxymoron in its own right) he was found of no wrong doing.... yeah and neither was Michale Vick. (The Vick comment was sarcasm)

And unfortunately there are many in congress on both sides of the isle that are just like Senator Dodd. Do I think we can fix the health care system, yes but the question is how do we keep Washington out of the mix as much as possible? That's the problem because we have to keep congress out but still convince the big insurance companies to be more fair to many Americans. Would I rather line the pockets of the insurance companies big wigs over the pockets of the government officials.... sort of. Its a no win situation at the moment and until a non government situation presents itself on the national level handling health care.

PS: as for Cuba... I consider any country with as few liberties as cuba a communist state no matter what there constitution says. Fidel Castro is and always will be a die hard communist ruler.
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Post by CraigKingOfIreland Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:33 pm

All governments are corrupt, that hasn't stopped many parts of the world from having universal health care. Corruption can't do a lot in a system where EVERYBODY is seen as equal the eyes of hospitals. I also trust the corruption of politicians far more than I trust the insurance man and what he'll do in order to make profit. Greed in the banking system has done a hell of a lot of damage to the world's economy over the past two years. Greed in insurance companies is/will be only a little more subtle in the damage it causes. I really can't support any system where money comes before people's lives.

P.S. Again, communism is a form of socialism. Regardless of what kind of government they have, one of America's most hated enemies has a much better functioning health system than the US does. I think if I was sick I would much rather be in Cuba than the US.

BTW, have you watched the movie Sicko? I know Michael Moore can exaggerate a little, but its still a great documentary which makes some great points Smile
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Post by Monegasque Mon Aug 17, 2009 12:54 am

CraigKingOfIreland wrote:

P.S. Again, communism is a form of socialism.

Craig, Socialism and Communism are completely different, there both at different ends of the scale.
Capitalism is in the middle of the two Wink.
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Post by CraigKingOfIreland Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:08 am

Socialism and communism are both on the left, the opposite end on the scale is fascism.
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Post by dljrfn2000 Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:39 am

CraigKingOfIreland wrote:
BTW, have you watched the movie Sicko? I know Michael Moore can exaggerate a little, but its still a great documentary which makes some great points Smile

I would honestly kill Moore if given the chance so don't make that argument with me, Michael Moore is a sicko.
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Post by dljrfn2000 Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:47 am

CraigKingOfIreland wrote:Socialism and communism are both on the left, the opposite end on the scale is fascism.

Craig is correct on this and actually pure fundamental capitalism is to the right as well. If going from right to left it's.

Fascism- Most Right
Pure Capitalism- Moderate right
50-50 split Capital Socialism- dead center
Socialism- Moderate Left
Communism- Most Left

but this is all subjective because as you go further left you also start to match some principles with the far right, keep in mind despite being a communist country there were many times when the totalitarianness of Stalin and Castro were equal to the totalitarianness of Hitler and Musolini (with out the mass genocide but that wasn't as a result of Facism per say)

any way.... we got off topic for a second.

I don't think that its a fact of lives v. money. It's a loose loose situation as I see it. Do I want to line the pockets of the Investors and Big wigs of the insurance companies or do I want to line the pockets of our congressmen. Frankly, neither. Which is why I think it's sort of a lets just hold on and not rush into this. I think the government is trying to rush into it, why because they want more power... power corrupts and the more power you have the more power you want and the US government has been getting power hungry since the Johnson Years. If the US government or someone outside of it can offer up a solution that would not line the pockets of the congress or the big wigs in insurance then I would subscribe to it. But right now I see no solution so rather than say oh we need to do this because lives are being lost is foolish. Lives are always going to be lost and always have been. That's just the way of the world people are born and they die. Should we rush into something that gives the government more power just because lives are at stake.

If you wanna make the movie references.... see the 2nd and 3rd star wars movies.... classic take on what I'm afraid could happen.
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